A short time ago I had a conversation with a brother who claimed that Arminians can be saved today and lose their salvation tomorrow. I challenged him to provide me the theologian, theological article, book, teacher, pastor, church group that believed that. He absolutely refused to do so, but he insisted that I provide a time frame for how soon a person can lose their faith.
JK I would want to be clear that the Arminian version of Lordship salvation and insecurity are even worse, and that at least Calvin and Luther rejected the Catholic and Arminian teaching that you can have eternal life and be truly saved one day/month/year and be lost again the next. May God be gracious to all the godly souls who have been unnecessarily fearful because of that teaching. “Perfect love casts out fear.”
Len I do not know of any reputable Wesleyan or Baptist (Free Will, etc.) that would believe that saved one day and lost the next. NONE! Check it out: http://evangelicalarminians.org/?s=apostasy
JK Len, which is why I specifically said “day/month/year”. Do Arminians not believe that you can be saved in 2019 but be “cut off” in 2020? Or does it take longer than that? The article doesn’t give any time frame required for a cutting off, but according to what they teach, it has to happen at a point or in a range of time, for it obviously can’t happen apart from time.
Len JK No, we don’t believe that. There is no time. Only Calvinists believe in exhaustive determinism and all is rendered certain. How can anyone state a time? You are the first I ever heard this in studying this topic for over 50 years. Only God knows the future. When someone crosses that point, only God can judge. Where do you get these ideas? Please give me a link to the article you get your information on “…according to what they teach…” I would like to read it.
JK I guess I would simply ask you the question: Is it possible to be once saved and subsequently lost again? If yes, then time is of necessity at issue. If no, then you admit eternal security, and the final cutting off one who once gained eternal life is impossible.
Len I absolutely do not understand this time factor. Did you dream this up on your own thinking, my brother? I have never in over 50 years have heard anything of this nature. I have not read it in theology books, articles, theologians, pastors, absolutely no one. I also do not understand your black/white demand of time. Are you thinking of one moral sin in losing salvation? Most Arminians would reject that. We believe there is a drifting from the faith which results in final apostasy. I cannot answer your question without a reference to a theology book, theology article, theologian, church group, pastor, teacher anyone who teaches your misunderstanding of Wesleyan Arminians and Baptist Arminian belief. Please provide someone, anyone, who teaches what you claim so I can study this. I cannot find any Wesleyan or Baptist Arminian theologian or article that addresses that topic. Please provide this, in the mercies of our Lord Jesus.
JK Len, I’d rather not continue a potentially fruitless discussion. I believe you and I should be able to discuss such a matter without asking for a link or citation from others; it would be regrettable if we couldn’t. When you speak of a drifting from the faith that results in final apostasy, could I really be faulted for believing that such drifting involves time? I would challenge you, brother, to explain how you haven’t just used temporal references to describe the path to final apostasy and, I assume, perdition.
Len JK I do believe, J, you know of no one who teaches this. The following link is what I and most Arminians believe. I have links to what I believe. Your strawman arguments are fruitless, brother.
What most of us believe. I’ll let your imagination find a date.
I’m not a very wise person, but pray I honored the Scriptures and the Lord Jesus.
The possibility of falling (being cut off—Romans 11:22). Some do not believe this, so I will not argue you.
The main verses usually cited for the possibility to apostatize. I read and understand the Scriptures in their plain, normal sense in context:
B1 Notice, God is the one who cuts off. We must not be arrogant. Romans 11:22 CSB Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
B2 Hebrews 3:12 CSB Watch out, brothers and sisters, so that there won’t be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
B3 Persecution sometimes will cause one to apostatize: Luke 8:13 CSB And the seed on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and fall away in a time of testing.
B4 Turning away from God’s love and love for God to love something else instead: 2 Timothy 4:10 CSB because Demas has deserted me, since he loved this present world, and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
B5 They were partakers of the Holy Spirit: Hebrews 6:4-6 WEB For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.
B1 Romans 8:16-17 CSB The Spirit himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children, and if children, also heirs—heirs of God and coheirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
B2 The verse implies that we can know: 2 Corinthians 13:5-6 CSB Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you yourselves not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless you fail the test. And I hope you will recognize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
A video: Matt O’Reilly, “Can Christians Lose Their Salvation (Arminianism vs. Calvinism) | Romans 9-11” (5+1/2 Minute Video) If that link does not work, try this: http://evangelicalarminians.org/matt-oreilly-can-christians-lose-their-salvation-arminianism-vs-calvinism-romans-9-11-51-2-minute-video/
We can safely sleep at night, for it is not us to keep it, it is God who is faithful. If we continually and persistently live in unbelief, then God will cut us off.
A Few Thoughts About Assurance
Posted by Choco in 2019 at 08:52
Labels: Arminian belief, Assurance of salvation